I don't know what it's called any more......

[tomdarch]

......If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it, does it make any sound at all?

People heard this tree fall and that's why we have this thread. Feign ethics while posturing complicity if you want, but your ignorance shows.

If people want to bring up ethics, then they have to expect to discuss ethics.

Personally, I choose to honor 'closed' routes. (It's easy for me becuase most red-tagged routes are harder than I can send.) But I have a hard time explaining why I would honor those requests. About the best I can do is a sort of "Golden Rule" argument. (Treat others as you would want them to treat you.) I operate by it in this situation, but why should I expect other people to accept it?

The 'tree in the forest' metaphor is right on in this situation. If someone sneaks in and sends a red-tagged route, leaves no trace of having been there and never tells anyone else about the send, how is the 'red tagger' harmed? If you want to make some sort of metaphysical argument ("but God knows!") then go right ahead. Otherwise - how is the 'red-tagger' harmed if she never knows that she didn't get the FA?

[kneebar]

Shit, I sure miss Terry when it comes to stuff like this!

[Andrew]

who is Miss Terry?

[Zspider]

dmw wrote:

I know for a fact that the people that work and live in the Gorge are very cognizant of their environment.

***************
Oh yes! I've always admired the town of Nada for its environmental statement.

ZSpider

[allah]

It seems to me that the ETHICS in the red have started to go down hill the last few years it seems. with multiple people "at Miguels" going out and getting on red tags, mine and others, is extremely disrespectful. I know some of you know what it takes to put up a route, but alot of people at the dont know what it takes. The first thing you need is a drill which brand new can run from 300 to 700 dollars (which as a reminder is all out of pocket) then you have the hardware which is no less than 50 dollars a route (unless you are sponsered or have really good conections) Drill bits are roughly 15 dollars a piece. Then there is the gas money for driving down, Fixing lines (which also cost money) roughly 5 hours (at least) for labor which my time is worth $20 an hour.

With all that I think I calculated that each route with hardware, drill usage, and labor would cost around $200 dollars. So if anyone would like to get on my red tags be prepared to either give me $200 dollars or get your fuckin hand chopped off. The other thing if you are going to get on one of my routes, just fuckin ask me and we can get on it together.

[Pete]

Oh yes! I've always admired the town of Nada for its environmental statement.

ZSpider

can we stay on the ethics topic please? if you want to start bashing locals and making fun of eastern kentucky, i suggest that you do it elsewhere, it isn't going to get much play here as many of us do (or have in the past) live and/or work in the region. i'm sure there are some neighborhoods in your community that aren't perfectly manicured, so go poke fun at those.

i agree with local - we all need to step up and be a bit more vocal about what we expect to see at our crags. terry never cared if he offended anyone by saying "aren't you going to f---ing pick up that cigarette butt before you go?" -- we don't have to be confrontational, but we should all help educate others and should be good role models...

as for climbing red tagged routes, duppy, you're wrong. it does matter. it is a matter of respect for the folks that have used their own time, resources and vision to clean and equip routes - to allow them the FA is not only polite, it is a long-standing climbing ethic - not just in the red. poaching routes is truly unethical and in poor taste.

[Meadows]

And at only 109 posts in nearly three years, Pete knows.

[ynot]

Nada has cleaned up recently. Be nice.

[captain static]

Since he doesn't frequent this bbs anymore, I don't think t-bone will mind me posting this from a PM he sent to me back in March:

Bill, Did you think climbing would ever come this? I think the general population is devoid of ethics in any circumtance any more. Most of the climbers have no idea they are doing anything wrong. The problem is not exclusive to the Red. Keep up the good work!

[DuppyC]

damn, last time one of my post's generated this much static I was talking about the advantages of home ownership over renting. Listen, I feel the same as most all of you, but, I only posted to point out the differences of something that is LEGAL compared to something that is ETHICAL. Sometimes people go over the top with their terms when ranting on this forum. Maybe I was a litte upset to see another post about us f-ing gym climbers that don't know our head's from our asses, when in reality some of us have been taught by many of you more seasoned Red veterans. Acting locally, ie: tellling that ONE person to clean up his shit at the crag, is much more likely to get results than the typical "gym-rats" rant seen once every 2-3 weeks on the site.

On another note, anyone looking to partner up this weekend, I'm leaving B-town, IN early Sat morning and can pick anyone up that is between here and the gorge.