I don't know what it's called any more......

Post by **Meadows** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:02 pm

defender, I'm not saying gym people are bad people. I started in a gym and still enjoy them when I can.

It's not a matter of using them as a scapegoat or bashing them, but if they lack the knowledge of rules (don't climb red tagged routes, draws left on a route are not theirs to take, stay on marked trails), then they may violate them. The best analogy I can use is, if you jumped on a plane and went to a country for the first time without any knowledge of the intricate social norms, you may violate them. You may give the American "OK" sign (index touching thumb) and in that culture it may mean, "F- you."

See what I mean?

Post by **rjackson** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:19 pm

Yes, I understand and agree.

Just want to make sure we represent and include Canada, Mexico, Malayasia and Queensland on that plane.

Post by **Saxman** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:57 pm

Another issue is simply avoidance. If I see a bunch of people in an area, I tend to move on. If they are a bunch of newbs doing stupid shit, I won't see till I am on my out or not at all. I think a lot of people who have been climbing for more than a few years try to get away from the crowds most of the time and these are the people who probably (not always) need the most guidance.

Post by **the lurkist** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:19 pm

local brings up a problem that is endemic to climbing- While there are many of us that have been climbing and part of this community for many years, there is also a large number of climbers (not just gym climbers) that are trasient to the community. Perhaps they cycle in and out of climbing, perhaps they come from farther away so that the infrequent trip to the Red is as often as they can become part of the community.
It is our (the Red Climbing Communities) short coming of not handing down to these new comers and communicating to them the ethos and accepted standards of behavior (our "culture") that allows this to happen. Maybe it is our reticence to be confrontational to folks we don't know. Maybe there are gentle ways to inform young folks (and I contend that the transgressors are probably for the most part young - 20's) what is expected. Signs at Miguel? Gently approaching folks and letting them know that they fucked up when they do cross the line.
Local is right. We need to teach these new folks what is expected of their behavior at the cliff.

Post by **captain static** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:18 pm

Earlier this year during the spring break season Ryan went out a couple times and talked to people at the crag. I did this a couple times also. Could we get some volunteers to take a little time out from their climbing to help get the message out to visiting climbers?

A small handout is also available to use when approaching people. One side has the same guidelines that are in the RRGCC ad in the guidebook. The other side has info on the PMRP. Copies of these could be made available @ Miguel's, RRO, & True North.

Post by **Saxman** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:50 pm

I still think a handout is a good idea, but the prevailing opinion is that they will mostly become litter. If that is what most people will do with something handed to them in good faith by someone friendly trying to communicate local info, we are fighting a lost cause.

Post by **mcrib** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:55 pm

Local is right. It seems worse from week to week. Pick up your shit and stay off routes with red tags.

Post by **DuppyC** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:58 pm

I agree with everything the OP mentions, with the exception of strictly pointing the finger at the gym crowd. But, instead of writing about it on a forum that maybe 10%, if that, of the people climbing in RRG look at, maybe you should educate said violators in person, on the spot when the violation is occuring. With the exception of litter, maybe they just did not know that they violated rule, er, ethic #12.3a, and they just need to be made aware...ethics are somewhat subjective, just ask any doctor.

Also, I forgot whom mentioned it, and I would never even consider climbing a red-tagged route because I am a highly ethical indivual with limited climbing skills, but, climbing a red-tagged route does not make you equal to a common thief, that's your emotions talking, ask the FA if he'd rather have someone climb his route or steal his drill, lets not go over the top here.

Post by **pigsteak** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:29 pm

duppy..sure it does...it makes you a thief, just not one who has visible booty for their deception and deceit. illegal downloading also make one a thief, but it is common practice. but it is illegal nonetheless. just because stealing a line does not involve a $500 drill makes it no less dishonorable...

Post by **redpointron** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:35 pm

DuppyC wrote:Also, I forgot whom mentioned it, and I would never even consider climbing a red-tagged route because I am a highly ethical indivual with limited climbing skills, but, climbing a red-tagged route does not make you equal to a common thief, that's your emotions talking, ask the FA if he'd rather have someone climb his route or steal his drill, lets not go over the top here.

duppyc...i don't post much, i don't draw lines in the sand, and i am not inclined to hyperbole, but to equate one who climbs a red tagged route to a thief isn't that far off. first of all, the few lines that i have done couldn't have been accomplished without some amazing guidance (piggie, goodguy, RRO, caspian, and j-rock), but now as i venture out on my own i would have to view someone jumped on my (our) line as a thief.

i have made several trips in the past few months to the red to develop and develop ONLY. i have spent way more time with a chainsaw than a stick clip.

not only would they be stealing the cost of the hardware, the gas money (which for me is about 100 bucks a trip) and the hard work, one could reasonably argue that they have stole your vision.

regards.

r.r.