Immigration and abortion?!?
unfair labor pratices, isn't that why workers form unions, not sit around, complaining about someone else taking there job.
Wouldn't the cost of living go through the roof if you didn't have the illegals picking your tomatoes and lettuce; giving you manicures, massages, doing your laundry (dry cleaning). This is the world we live in, unfortunately. I don't think the typical american is willing to give up such comforts or pay $5/ lb for tomatoes. We need a solutions that works for all of us.
I am a legal immigrant , and I don't care if somebody decides to come here illegally, I am not concerned about there morals-- if they consider coming here "illegally" wrong-- that is there business. Once there are crimes against society, then deal with them. But if they are contributing toward society and the economy, let them work. I recognize a problem exist with the burden the immigrants are placing on schools and to a degree on hospitals. But health care is a mess in this country-- eliminating the immigrant won't fix it. Schools have historically been underfunded in rural areas in Illinois, well before this issue got national attention. The education system and its funding needs to be addressed, period.
If you want a problem that should be address because of morals and abuse of government programs, look to utah, and the "fundamentalist" mormons with there 5 wifes and 30 kids living off welfare. They have cities of these people.
Wouldn't the cost of living go through the roof if you didn't have the illegals picking your tomatoes and lettuce; giving you manicures, massages, doing your laundry (dry cleaning). This is the world we live in, unfortunately. I don't think the typical american is willing to give up such comforts or pay $5/ lb for tomatoes. We need a solutions that works for all of us.
I am a legal immigrant , and I don't care if somebody decides to come here illegally, I am not concerned about there morals-- if they consider coming here "illegally" wrong-- that is there business. Once there are crimes against society, then deal with them. But if they are contributing toward society and the economy, let them work. I recognize a problem exist with the burden the immigrants are placing on schools and to a degree on hospitals. But health care is a mess in this country-- eliminating the immigrant won't fix it. Schools have historically been underfunded in rural areas in Illinois, well before this issue got national attention. The education system and its funding needs to be addressed, period.
If you want a problem that should be address because of morals and abuse of government programs, look to utah, and the "fundamentalist" mormons with there 5 wifes and 30 kids living off welfare. They have cities of these people.
domtizr starts with.....
unfair labor pratices, isn't that why workers form unions, not sit around, complaining about someone else taking there job.
THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE AT ALL, only the rednecks, Bubbas, and Billy Bob's are using this excuse to stay on welfare.....
domitzr explains.....
I am a legal immigrant , and I don't care if somebody decides to come here illegally, I am not concerned about there morals-- if they consider coming here "illegally" wrong-- that is there business.
Are you a naturalised citizen or a legal immigrant on a work visa????
Either way at some point in the process you agreed to follow the laws laid down in the U.S. AND IGNORING PEOPLE BREAKING THE LAW IS THE SAME AS BREAKING IT YOURSELF.
domitzr again....
Once there are crimes against society, then deal with them. But if they are contributing toward society and the economy, let them work.
So following your statement, if pedophiles are installing swing sets at the local school it's o.k. because they are performing a service????
domitzr admits....
I recognize a problem exist with the burden the immigrants are placing on schools and to a degree on hospitals. But health care is a mess in this country-- eliminating the immigrant won't fix it.
So following the ignorance above, if a fire is burning out of control, we should both, add gasoline to it, and not try stop or control it, as it gets bigger and more out of control.
domitzr writes....
Schools have historically been underfunded in rural areas in Illinois, well before this issue got national attention. The education system and its funding needs to be addressed, period.
well one statement I agree with, as do all the teachers on this board and my ex-wife as well. I have one problem though, why should little suzy or little billy's education suffer because little horhey, little pepe, little jaun, and little jaunita can get free education on my tax money that my own child will not get the full benifit of, due to over crowding in classrooms.
domitzr rants...
If you want a problem that should be address because of morals and abuse of government programs, look to utah, and the "fundamentalist" mormons with there 5 wifes and 30 kids living off welfare. They have cities of these people.
O.K., now you, who wants to ignore the lawbreakers, wants something done with a group of people, WHO ARE NOT BREAKING THE LAW!!!!
I will pay welfare for Jedidiah,his seven wives, and they're forty children before I would give a penny to an illegal immigrant. Your the reason people don't tend to like foreigners, your very mentality will cause me to vote against any and all laws, bills, rights that will help immigrants in any case. I will end with this" when in America, do as the Americans do..SPEAK ENGLISH!!!!!
unfair labor pratices, isn't that why workers form unions, not sit around, complaining about someone else taking there job.
THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE AT ALL, only the rednecks, Bubbas, and Billy Bob's are using this excuse to stay on welfare.....
domitzr explains.....
I am a legal immigrant , and I don't care if somebody decides to come here illegally, I am not concerned about there morals-- if they consider coming here "illegally" wrong-- that is there business.
Are you a naturalised citizen or a legal immigrant on a work visa????
Either way at some point in the process you agreed to follow the laws laid down in the U.S. AND IGNORING PEOPLE BREAKING THE LAW IS THE SAME AS BREAKING IT YOURSELF.
domitzr again....
Once there are crimes against society, then deal with them. But if they are contributing toward society and the economy, let them work.
So following your statement, if pedophiles are installing swing sets at the local school it's o.k. because they are performing a service????
domitzr admits....
I recognize a problem exist with the burden the immigrants are placing on schools and to a degree on hospitals. But health care is a mess in this country-- eliminating the immigrant won't fix it.
So following the ignorance above, if a fire is burning out of control, we should both, add gasoline to it, and not try stop or control it, as it gets bigger and more out of control.
domitzr writes....
Schools have historically been underfunded in rural areas in Illinois, well before this issue got national attention. The education system and its funding needs to be addressed, period.
well one statement I agree with, as do all the teachers on this board and my ex-wife as well. I have one problem though, why should little suzy or little billy's education suffer because little horhey, little pepe, little jaun, and little jaunita can get free education on my tax money that my own child will not get the full benifit of, due to over crowding in classrooms.
domitzr rants...
If you want a problem that should be address because of morals and abuse of government programs, look to utah, and the "fundamentalist" mormons with there 5 wifes and 30 kids living off welfare. They have cities of these people.
O.K., now you, who wants to ignore the lawbreakers, wants something done with a group of people, WHO ARE NOT BREAKING THE LAW!!!!
I will pay welfare for Jedidiah,his seven wives, and they're forty children before I would give a penny to an illegal immigrant. Your the reason people don't tend to like foreigners, your very mentality will cause me to vote against any and all laws, bills, rights that will help immigrants in any case. I will end with this" when in America, do as the Americans do..SPEAK ENGLISH!!!!!
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.....
It is a very common misperception that undocumented immigrants don't pay taxes and are otherwise a drain on the tax base. Whether you are documented or not, you still pay sales tax when you buy something at the store, right? Whether you are documented or not, you still pay either a mortgage or rent than includes some money that ultimately goes to pay property taxes (which is what, for the most part, funds the local school system). If an employer is properly classifying you as an employee, as opposed to trying to do some shady independent contractor thing, then taxes should be deducted from your pay (7.65% of gross wages, to be matched by the employer) and paid to the gov't for social security, whether your social security number is valid or not. And, if you are undocumented, then you will never see ANY of that social security money that you are paying in (last I heard there was something like $50 billion in the social security coffers that is "unclaimed" or not associated with a valid number--most of it contributed by undocumented workers who will never receive an entitlement based on what they paid in). I suppose many people think that folks aren't paying taxes because they may or may not file a tax return, but if all the low-wage undocumented workers filed tax returns, they would for the most part be getting refunds on their taxes, not paying more in than was already taken out of their pay. Exactly what taxes are undocumented workers not paying?
"You're name isn't Rio, but I don't care for sand."
Jim,
You make some valid points, but nor do I have the time to investigate your statements or the energy. I think healtcare costs that they are running up are probably far greater than the taxes the illegal's are paying into the system I may never see anything out of in 35 years. I think the whole thing with these workers is that they work cheap and employers don't have to provide benefits. I wonder how it is that a legal employer can take taxes out of a check from someone who has no social security number to track for tax purposes. I was not really going for the tax thing as a basis for my disaproval of illegalls, that's just a piece of the pie.
Here in Ohio, a small county is about $575.000 in the hole and near bankruptcy just from housing illegal immigrant law breakers. It's almost a joke, they give false names, have no id, don't show up for court, this costs us all money(property taxes, city taxes,county taxes,court cost's law enforcement salaries) this is just what I can think of. I have no remorse for them paying in to what they won't get back from, they are here breaking laws, don't speak the language and are burning up resources I constantly pay for and I should embrace them with open arms.....
I love this country, I fought for it, I obey it's laws, and most of all I will die for it should the need arise, however I will not sit idly by and watch people who rule with emotions run it into the ground because it feels bad to kick enrique and julio out until they want to follow the rules..... as always my 2cents.
You make some valid points, but nor do I have the time to investigate your statements or the energy. I think healtcare costs that they are running up are probably far greater than the taxes the illegal's are paying into the system I may never see anything out of in 35 years. I think the whole thing with these workers is that they work cheap and employers don't have to provide benefits. I wonder how it is that a legal employer can take taxes out of a check from someone who has no social security number to track for tax purposes. I was not really going for the tax thing as a basis for my disaproval of illegalls, that's just a piece of the pie.
Here in Ohio, a small county is about $575.000 in the hole and near bankruptcy just from housing illegal immigrant law breakers. It's almost a joke, they give false names, have no id, don't show up for court, this costs us all money(property taxes, city taxes,county taxes,court cost's law enforcement salaries) this is just what I can think of. I have no remorse for them paying in to what they won't get back from, they are here breaking laws, don't speak the language and are burning up resources I constantly pay for and I should embrace them with open arms.....
I love this country, I fought for it, I obey it's laws, and most of all I will die for it should the need arise, however I will not sit idly by and watch people who rule with emotions run it into the ground because it feels bad to kick enrique and julio out until they want to follow the rules..... as always my 2cents.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.....
gunslga--
I understand there are many reasons peple don't like undocumented immigrants in this country. I was just trying to point out that I personally think the tax argument is a weak one and based on misconceptions about what taxes are being paid and who is responsible for paying them.
pigsteak--
I think the key word in what you say is "knowingly" putting someone on the payroll. There are employers who wink and look the other way when presented with documents by someone they probably know or should know is undocumented when they put that person on the payroll--mostly larger businesses (particularly agribusiness) who have a decent fear of being audited and/or are otherwise running a legitimate operation (restaurant or other national chains to name one example). But, you are right, there is no reason for an unscrupulous employer to put someone on the payroll and match their social security earnings, pay workers comp, unemployment insurance on a larger payroll, etc. and certainly there are many who simply work people off the books--although that, as many people can probably personally attest to from high school and college jobs--is not limited to that sector of the ecomony that uses immigrant labor. It certainly does make it easier for those employers to get away with it though when they have a workforce that is unlikely to complain.
Not to get off on a tangent too much, but I find it interesting that nobody really looks into the reasons why people migrate from Latin American countries to the U.S. when discussing illegal immigration. The majority of the undocumented population currently here come from Mexico, Guatemala, and El Salvador. With respect to Mexico, many migrants come here because NAFTA put about a million subsistence farmers out of business due to the U.S. corn growers flooding their market with cheap, surplus (and U.S. government subsidized) corn and other ag products. In the cases of Guatemala and El Salvador, many people are still fleeing those countries because they still have not recovered economically and otherwise from U.S. backed coups (Guatemala's popularly elected Arbenz government in the 50s, civil war in the 80s and 90s, and the civil war in El Salvador in the 80s and 90s). But, the consequences of U.S.'s foreign policy in Latin America over the last 50 years or so is never taken into consideration when discussing why people migrate. Sure, its easy to say that Mexico and other countries should do more to benefit their citizenry so they will stay there and not leave for the U.S., but it seems to me like it is a bit of a case of the chickens coming home to roost and us getting what we paid for by meddling where we didn't belong.
I understand there are many reasons peple don't like undocumented immigrants in this country. I was just trying to point out that I personally think the tax argument is a weak one and based on misconceptions about what taxes are being paid and who is responsible for paying them.
pigsteak--
I think the key word in what you say is "knowingly" putting someone on the payroll. There are employers who wink and look the other way when presented with documents by someone they probably know or should know is undocumented when they put that person on the payroll--mostly larger businesses (particularly agribusiness) who have a decent fear of being audited and/or are otherwise running a legitimate operation (restaurant or other national chains to name one example). But, you are right, there is no reason for an unscrupulous employer to put someone on the payroll and match their social security earnings, pay workers comp, unemployment insurance on a larger payroll, etc. and certainly there are many who simply work people off the books--although that, as many people can probably personally attest to from high school and college jobs--is not limited to that sector of the ecomony that uses immigrant labor. It certainly does make it easier for those employers to get away with it though when they have a workforce that is unlikely to complain.
Not to get off on a tangent too much, but I find it interesting that nobody really looks into the reasons why people migrate from Latin American countries to the U.S. when discussing illegal immigration. The majority of the undocumented population currently here come from Mexico, Guatemala, and El Salvador. With respect to Mexico, many migrants come here because NAFTA put about a million subsistence farmers out of business due to the U.S. corn growers flooding their market with cheap, surplus (and U.S. government subsidized) corn and other ag products. In the cases of Guatemala and El Salvador, many people are still fleeing those countries because they still have not recovered economically and otherwise from U.S. backed coups (Guatemala's popularly elected Arbenz government in the 50s, civil war in the 80s and 90s, and the civil war in El Salvador in the 80s and 90s). But, the consequences of U.S.'s foreign policy in Latin America over the last 50 years or so is never taken into consideration when discussing why people migrate. Sure, its easy to say that Mexico and other countries should do more to benefit their citizenry so they will stay there and not leave for the U.S., but it seems to me like it is a bit of a case of the chickens coming home to roost and us getting what we paid for by meddling where we didn't belong.
"You're name isn't Rio, but I don't care for sand."
-
the lurkist
- Posts: 2240
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:07 pm
On a larger perspective of this issue, I think the US govt creating a meaningful and coherent policy to address the need for legal status of the swelling immigrant population and provide a workable policy for immigration that takes into account the needs of US business for these willing workers is a huge opportunity for the US to do what it does better than any other country in the history of the world- that is welcome divergent immigrants and their cultures into the melting pot and assimilate them.
We are all immigrants. I am of the immigrant group that was the most reviled and despised ethinic group of the 19th century- the Irish immigrant.
You examine your ethnic roots and consider how your stock came to the US. For every one, it was a painful and contentious process. Always turf battles, always a new foreigner.
Now with the US's prestige suffering in the world as the benevolent shining light of democracy and opportunity, the US has the opportunity to make a workable solution that welcomes these desirable people and fold them in to the mix. Sure, we all get a bit browner- so what. Our crediblity in the world community goes through the ceiling. We can say, "Look, you have ethnic cleansing, strife, and civil war, and we have immigration and demographic shifts peacefully, and to everyone's benefit."
I have taken care of these people in my former job at an occupational health clinic. Never have I had the pleasure to take care of a more family oriented, good family values, hard working, wanting to get better and get back to work... etc, etc.. group of people.
I could write a book about some of these guys who want to work so badly, they work with horrific injuries and pain. I know of few native born Americans who have the same drive.
These folks really are a benefit to the community.
What they take in health care costs, cost of delivery of municiple serviecs, etc I bet they more than make up for in their contribution to the companies they work for. Economies grow and companies then pay big taxes to the community. That is the payback.
We are all immigrants. I am of the immigrant group that was the most reviled and despised ethinic group of the 19th century- the Irish immigrant.
You examine your ethnic roots and consider how your stock came to the US. For every one, it was a painful and contentious process. Always turf battles, always a new foreigner.
Now with the US's prestige suffering in the world as the benevolent shining light of democracy and opportunity, the US has the opportunity to make a workable solution that welcomes these desirable people and fold them in to the mix. Sure, we all get a bit browner- so what. Our crediblity in the world community goes through the ceiling. We can say, "Look, you have ethnic cleansing, strife, and civil war, and we have immigration and demographic shifts peacefully, and to everyone's benefit."
I have taken care of these people in my former job at an occupational health clinic. Never have I had the pleasure to take care of a more family oriented, good family values, hard working, wanting to get better and get back to work... etc, etc.. group of people.
I could write a book about some of these guys who want to work so badly, they work with horrific injuries and pain. I know of few native born Americans who have the same drive.
These folks really are a benefit to the community.
What they take in health care costs, cost of delivery of municiple serviecs, etc I bet they more than make up for in their contribution to the companies they work for. Economies grow and companies then pay big taxes to the community. That is the payback.
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
Normie
Normie
True, but we can either sit around and discuss, finger point, or argue who's fault it is/was/will be if we don't take action now and try to slow the negative effects on our medical system, educational system, and legal systems. I really don't care who's fault it is, I did'nt do it, so why should "WE THE PEOPLE" pay/suffer from it. Do you believe in reperations from slavery?? I never owned a slave, nor my father, or my fathers father, or his father in Scotland, but because of my skin tone I would be in the payer catagory not the payee. I was always trained to take action, not sit and talk, too much time is wasted that way. I don't have a plan, my post's were not to convey that I had, like everyone else I'm sounding off about something that concerns me and my country.....my 2cents.jim wrote:it is never taken into consideration when discussing why people migrate. Sure, its easy to say that Mexico and other countries should do more to benefit their citizenry so they will stay there and not leave for the U.S.,
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.....