POTENTIAL CLOSURE OF TORRENT FALLS CRAG
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Torrent Falls
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:43 pm
Greetings from Mark.
I have read this thread entirely. Alot of great ideas. I am glad people are concerned and they should be. I am letting people know, that the rules are still not being followed. I realize it takes time, that is why the May 1 deadline has been set. We have placed a porta-john at the Torrent B&B. So we have eliminated the excuse of relieving themselves on our property. That has not stopped climbers from coming to the B&B and still asking to use our facilities. I guess the porta-john is not plush or warm enough. By the way Jeff, you guys are getting a real deal from Ed if he is charging you $35 per month. I am paying more than double that. But I can fix that.
We are seriously considering the "No Pets" policy. Unfortunately, with this policy, people will still break the rules. We have the same policy for our cabins and rooms. They still break the rules, but not very often. But it would may a great impact if that policy was in place.
As far as being busy, we are. We do police efforts to our ability. But we also have work to do. Again it is a privilage to climb here. We are not going to police it. I am not interested in setting up a membership and climbing gym. Our hands are full. If I could see the financial benefits in a pay to climb area (with liability insurance covered) then I would consider it. One has to look at the overall business plan though. I have, and it is not a prudent decision. It is cheaper for me to close climbing with the exception of guided climbing. If everyone does not know, we offer guided climbing. We can set up package deals with lodging, guide services, food, hot tub, masseuse, nightly bonfires, etc.
Any good attorney can eat a waiver alive. It is BS. Do you really read waivers and understand them entirely? Case closed.
We are not going to open the parking lot at the BBQ for the climbing community. This limited parking area is for paying customers of the Via Ferrata and BBQ. Even if I charged $10 to park there, I can make $30 to $40 per car load of BBQer's. Or better yet, I can make $1,000 from a bus load of Boy Scouts.
To those of you who understand my family and myself. You have hit it on the head to be respectful of the property owner and their wishes. We know and do not live in a world where we believe that everyday these rules are going to be followed. But it has a great deal of room for change. By stating this, it does not mean that Torrent won't close on May 1. By the way people are still behaving, it is a high probability. But we will give time for change to take effect. All of it is common sense. Even the pet/dog issue. I will state it this way. Treat people as you want to be treated. Do you want 20 to 30 dogs crapping in your yard on every Saturday? Then 5 to 10 dogs every other day of the week. Clean it up or loose the privilage of bringing the dogs. No pet policy would be easier. I mainly wish people would ke responsibility of their lives and their pets. But that is living in an idealistic world.
All of you who have been so nice to our family, a great big thank you. We love having you bless and enrich our lives. To those of you who abuse us, please stay away so that our friends can still come and play at Torrent. This thread has illustrated, there are many great people still out there. The quiet violators are not commenting. Some who are violators are men and women enough to admit it. I respect you for that. Let's all work together in keeping climbing open.
This is a long but great thread. Take care everyone.
Mark
I have read this thread entirely. Alot of great ideas. I am glad people are concerned and they should be. I am letting people know, that the rules are still not being followed. I realize it takes time, that is why the May 1 deadline has been set. We have placed a porta-john at the Torrent B&B. So we have eliminated the excuse of relieving themselves on our property. That has not stopped climbers from coming to the B&B and still asking to use our facilities. I guess the porta-john is not plush or warm enough. By the way Jeff, you guys are getting a real deal from Ed if he is charging you $35 per month. I am paying more than double that. But I can fix that.
We are seriously considering the "No Pets" policy. Unfortunately, with this policy, people will still break the rules. We have the same policy for our cabins and rooms. They still break the rules, but not very often. But it would may a great impact if that policy was in place.
As far as being busy, we are. We do police efforts to our ability. But we also have work to do. Again it is a privilage to climb here. We are not going to police it. I am not interested in setting up a membership and climbing gym. Our hands are full. If I could see the financial benefits in a pay to climb area (with liability insurance covered) then I would consider it. One has to look at the overall business plan though. I have, and it is not a prudent decision. It is cheaper for me to close climbing with the exception of guided climbing. If everyone does not know, we offer guided climbing. We can set up package deals with lodging, guide services, food, hot tub, masseuse, nightly bonfires, etc.
Any good attorney can eat a waiver alive. It is BS. Do you really read waivers and understand them entirely? Case closed.
We are not going to open the parking lot at the BBQ for the climbing community. This limited parking area is for paying customers of the Via Ferrata and BBQ. Even if I charged $10 to park there, I can make $30 to $40 per car load of BBQer's. Or better yet, I can make $1,000 from a bus load of Boy Scouts.
To those of you who understand my family and myself. You have hit it on the head to be respectful of the property owner and their wishes. We know and do not live in a world where we believe that everyday these rules are going to be followed. But it has a great deal of room for change. By stating this, it does not mean that Torrent won't close on May 1. By the way people are still behaving, it is a high probability. But we will give time for change to take effect. All of it is common sense. Even the pet/dog issue. I will state it this way. Treat people as you want to be treated. Do you want 20 to 30 dogs crapping in your yard on every Saturday? Then 5 to 10 dogs every other day of the week. Clean it up or loose the privilage of bringing the dogs. No pet policy would be easier. I mainly wish people would ke responsibility of their lives and their pets. But that is living in an idealistic world.
All of you who have been so nice to our family, a great big thank you. We love having you bless and enrich our lives. To those of you who abuse us, please stay away so that our friends can still come and play at Torrent. This thread has illustrated, there are many great people still out there. The quiet violators are not commenting. Some who are violators are men and women enough to admit it. I respect you for that. Let's all work together in keeping climbing open.
This is a long but great thread. Take care everyone.
Mark
Thanks Mark and Kathy for all the good times I've had on both of your properties.
I hope things work out, and I can understand your frustration.
I don't know how many times I've been out climbing and witnessed the lack of respect for other climbers, let alone the land owners.
I hope people can wake up and change the way things are going.
As far as the $35 goes, we pitched in up on the ridge when the porta-john was there and
were told our $75 was "quite enough".
I could've sworn Mary said it was only $35, but it wouldn't be the first time I got something wrong. There is often beer involved at the end of the day.
I hope things work out, and I can understand your frustration.
I don't know how many times I've been out climbing and witnessed the lack of respect for other climbers, let alone the land owners.
I hope people can wake up and change the way things are going.
As far as the $35 goes, we pitched in up on the ridge when the porta-john was there and
were told our $75 was "quite enough".
I could've sworn Mary said it was only $35, but it wouldn't be the first time I got something wrong. There is often beer involved at the end of the day.
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the lurkist
- Posts: 2240
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:07 pm
Thanks for your feedback, Mark.
It is your family that has blessed us and the Red River Gorge Climbing Community.
Unfortunately, we are all preaching to the choir on this BBS. I am sure we will all individually be doing our part to protect your property. We will have to be vigilant for the climbers who are not on this forum and hopefully be able to get the message out.
all the best
Hugh
It is your family that has blessed us and the Red River Gorge Climbing Community.
Unfortunately, we are all preaching to the choir on this BBS. I am sure we will all individually be doing our part to protect your property. We will have to be vigilant for the climbers who are not on this forum and hopefully be able to get the message out.
all the best
Hugh
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
Normie
Normie
Thanks for all the fun I've had at Torrent, Mark and Kathy.
It is a sad thing that Torrent may close, but if it gives the peace of mind you and your family need, so be it! Your goodness has been appreciated by many.
I'm still coming by for BBQ and the best baked potatoes in the world!
It is a sad thing that Torrent may close, but if it gives the peace of mind you and your family need, so be it! Your goodness has been appreciated by many.
I'm still coming by for BBQ and the best baked potatoes in the world!
What I love about running is you can meditate while running. It's a peaceful place.
Sister Mary Elizabeth Lloyd, Runs marathons to raise money and awareness about children orphaned by AIDS
Sister Mary Elizabeth Lloyd, Runs marathons to raise money and awareness about children orphaned by AIDS
You know on Star Trek how they have phasers? Well we could get one of those. The problem with a phaser is having the proper restraint not to use the full setting immediately! Everyone knows what happens on full. I prefer the full setting. The bad guys are annihilated! This is cool because there would be no evidence remaining. No evidence/no crime! Even it it were on video no one would believe it. We could ask Morgan about the legal aspects of all this. It just came to me! We could put a sign up with the galactic symbol for the phaser. On the sign would also be the local symbols of violations that would get you phased! I think that would pretty much solve the problem.
So now you'd better stop and rebuild all your ruins,
For peace and trust can win the day despite of all your losing-- Zep
For peace and trust can win the day despite of all your losing-- Zep
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Guest
is it illegal to kill people on private property? Would a self-defense defense apply in this situation?
"Your honor, he was seen crapping in the woods and ripping rhodo leaves off living bushes in order to wipe his butt. I had no choice but to blow his brains out. And his ho, she was screaming the eff word louder and louder with each whip, leaving me no choice but to cut the rope. I rest my case."
My only questions is, what do we do with the bodies?
"Your honor, he was seen crapping in the woods and ripping rhodo leaves off living bushes in order to wipe his butt. I had no choice but to blow his brains out. And his ho, she was screaming the eff word louder and louder with each whip, leaving me no choice but to cut the rope. I rest my case."
My only questions is, what do we do with the bodies?