Global Village Climbing

Post by JB » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:05 pm

Educational facilities used to not need permits. Now we do. It's a long and convoluted process. My decision has been to keep group size at 8 or below and try to use non dbnf land for my trips.

Paul will do a great job minimizing impact. Keep in mind that these areas are already very impacted. The large group size will not further impact the trail (it is a durable surface). Splitting the group between 2 climbs at once (say eureka and father and son) will be lessening impact as well.

Yes, the group is larger than I would take, but with care and dedication, impact can be minimized. I would suggest that a service project be included in the price of the trip... say building some nice steps up the steep climb up to the area. everybody carries a 2x6 and voila! That'd stop the complaining huh?

Post by **Artsay** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:06 pm

So what's the difference between a big group planning a learning trip to a crag OR friends telling everyone "we're all climbing at Military. You should come!". The latter happens all the time and I've never heard anyone step up and say we should spread out more. So is the latter example different because we're all friends and *experienced* climbers compared to a University outdoor club?

Personally, when I hear a big group is climbing somewhere, friends or not, I go somewhere else.

Post by **Andrew** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:14 pm

Thats because the people at the load climb 5.13. I thought you knew how this worked.

Paul is right, the same people that complain about large university groups are some of the same people that go to the load 15 deep. Granted it is private property, but I have seen it on forest service land also.

I did the same thing once about three years back. I was only the rope gun for a university group. We had 12 total including myself and the other leader. I opted for using private land, oil crack and arena, so that we were not breaking any rules. I had even asked the RRGCC about it first and they said it was fine. We stayed low key and followed all of the other common sense things.

So, I guess I feel for paul here. He tried to pick a good place for his "clients". A place that has good, easy enough, and variety. He aslo picked a place that isn't to terribly busy, so that he wouldn't be in to many peoples way. Also, he picked a place that is not along any other FS trails or roads, and doesn't get frequented by normal tourists. I feel he is doing the right decision for the most part, and I understand his frustration of the hipocrasy. I think we all taught him and others a lesson. Don't tell anyone.

Post by **Meadows** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:15 pm

After last weekend's chaos at the Lode and Solar, i'm definitely suggesting that we spread out.

Post by **Sunshine** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:41 pm

Paul, is it OK to give the FS a heads ups for this outing?

Post by **SCIN** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:54 pm

I've seen Lexingtonians dominate crags through word of mouth before. I don't see how this is any different.

Post by **Paul3eb** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:06 pm

i'd appreciate it if you didn't but if you feel the need to ruin a climbing trip for two dozen kids, do what you have to, terry.

likewise, i'd appreciate if you gave me a heads up if you do call them so i can call and apologize to the kids, the coordinators, the program director, and the forest service.

Post by **Wes** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:13 pm

Maybe someone should call Cliffview about some possable unauthorized camping that I hear is going on out there? I mean we all need to follow all the rules, right ? I mean no one should ever have climbed at oil crack when it was closed, right? And no one should have been climbing in Sore Heal when the rrgcc was asking people to stay out right? I mean WE ALL have to follow ALL the rules, otherwise we end up looking like judgemental hypocrites.

Post by **climbhigh** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:16 pm

I was going to keep my mouth shut on this topic......

So now everyone bashes Paul who has done a tremendous amount of work for the current fundraiser, RRGCC’s, climbers that care events, trail days and many many more things in the community because its cool and everyone seems to be doing it. I’m not saying that what you do in the past gets you check marks and the ability "to break the law" as you see fit. But shit how much can you drive one topic into the ground. If you got that big of a beef with his decision write him a pm. Don’t air it out for the whole world to see and act like your shit don’t stink. EVERYONE that has posted on this topic has broken the "law" and probably already this year. How many of you have climbed at closed crags, even if it’s on Sunday? How many of you have camped where you shouldn’t? I know for a fact that a lot of the people bitching right now have been out with groups almost that big plus 4-8 dogs rasing hell. And I cam pretty certain LNT wasnt adhered to or talked about.

I agree 100% that as a user group we need to educate and self-police. But lets not let it turn into name taking when the teacher leaves the class. There is a way and a time for everything. I like Artsays sig line. Read it and act it. Not saying keep your mouth shut when you see things going wrong, but there are better ways to handle situations than talking down or yelling at people or trying to make a public spectale of them. There is to much drama in the real world, lets try to keep it out of our hobby. Solutions, education and open non-confrontational communication seem much better to me than what has happened in the last 3 pages.

Paul check with the FS for a permit. Anyone that deals with groups for hire or private needs to. Thats the guidelines that all outfitters have to adhere to, its only fair.If one person has to pay a commission others need to. Write a proposal for the activities, # in your group, ways you will alleviate impact and how you will spread the group out, preach Leave Not Trace to the group and within the proposal. You may be surprised how the FS will react to well managed and presented permit for your type of group. If they turn you down then there are plenty of private crags that you can use.

Post by **mcrib** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:23 pm

We all need to have fewer friends. It works for me. This all seems like it is going to continue to boil over because the popularity of the red continues to grow. There are climbing gyms hundreds of miles from rock and people want to climb outside. But the Red can hold a finite amount of people. So where is the solution?