$35/month from Eds.kneebar wrote:Anybody know how much a porta john cost to rent a month?
POTENTIAL CLOSURE OF TORRENT FALLS CRAG
You're right. But if the behavior isn't addressed, anyone that sees it happening and doesn't speak up is also to blame for the problem.Toy wrote:
Quote:
Having said that, self-policing, while sometimes uncomfortable and unpleasant, requires us to actually grab sack and verbalize our displeasure with the misbehavior of others. .
This is easier said than done, in general most of the community are non-aggressive in this manner.
The bottom line is, when you see a problem you should address it. Writing a pamphlet outlining the problem or showing someone a picture of the problem isn't nearly as effective as telling someone they messed up. If my dog takes a dump on the carpet, I'd be an idiot to expect the problem to get better by showing him a picture of the dump he just took. I'd be even more of an idiot to show him the picture after the fact.
Merrick, my point is valid regardless of whether or not you want to believe it. I teach high school kids, most of whom consider themselves adults. The reality is most are far from it, not unlike part of our climbing community apparently. I know from 10 years of teaching experience that talking about poor behavior immediately when it occurs is the most effective way to change the behavior.
We should be stewards of the land. It's not an easy task, I realize. Communicating the problem is important, but not nearly as important as addressing it when it occurs. The majority of the issues Mr. Meyer is displeased with can be handled with self-discipline and policing amongst ourselves.
We should be stewards of the land. It's not an easy task, I realize. Communicating the problem is important, but not nearly as important as addressing it when it occurs. The majority of the issues Mr. Meyer is displeased with can be handled with self-discipline and policing amongst ourselves.
I agree with you.
However, as we have pointed out before, we are asking members of a cultural group that has a somewhat standard set of acceptable behaviors to adopt a different set of behaviors in a specific instance. therefore, chastising someone for acting in a way that they would normally act at any other crag without the signifier that they are in a place that requires a different set of conduct could lead to agression and resentment.
Thus the signs and turnstyles to try to give people the impression that the normal rules of conduct might not be acceptable.
However, as we have pointed out before, we are asking members of a cultural group that has a somewhat standard set of acceptable behaviors to adopt a different set of behaviors in a specific instance. therefore, chastising someone for acting in a way that they would normally act at any other crag without the signifier that they are in a place that requires a different set of conduct could lead to agression and resentment.
Thus the signs and turnstyles to try to give people the impression that the normal rules of conduct might not be acceptable.
Back from the Dead!
First, to me the signifyers are obvious. You have to drive past huge signs, walk by cabins (usually with children nearby), past a vending machine, up beefy stairs, to a cliff that is less than a stone's throw from said cabin's. It should be quite clear that Torrent is a private enterprise and requires more tact and better conduct than is being shown. Your climbing in someone's backyard.for acting in a way that they would normally act at any other crag without the signifier that they are in a place that requires a different set of conduct could lead to agression and resentment.
Secondly, BFD is someone resents that fact that they are being called out for acting in such a way that might jeopardize the future of this cliff. It should be important enough to us as a group to voice displeasure.
I agree with Toy. You can put up all the signage you want and the people can read it until their eyes bleed. But if these people decide to climb at Torrent and you see them messing up, you have to say something anyway. It doesn't have to be confrontational. Just say something like "Excuse me. I'm friends with the property owner and they won't tolerate you doing what you are doing. Please stop or you are going to get this place shut down." Speak up at other cliffs as well. You just have to keep asking yourself when you see a situation that needs addressed, "How important is this area where I climb?"
Think of it as an exercise in assertiveness. I could help you out in your day to day life as well.
Think of it as an exercise in assertiveness. I could help you out in your day to day life as well.
I am all for constructive intervention...i am just saying we should analyze why the current signs are not working and see if it is a usability issue as opposed to a human nature issue.
as an extreme example of what I mean:
you can put up 50,000 signs covering every inch of torrent and if they are all in spanish then they are useless to the majority of climbers who come there. The position, size, location, and content of one sign could have a massive postive impact.
much my of job is analyzing user use patterns and creating better ways for people to navigate through information. you can have the same information(in this case signs) and present it two different ways(maybe the size of the font used and the postition of the sign). In one situation people will ignore it 80% of the time the other 20% of the time.
it is definately harder without analytical software tracking millions of users navigating through the information but sometimes a "hey did you notice the donation box?" could show whether or not a more prominent or better signed donation box would be useful.
But i agree we should definately publicly humiliate all the MF's who break the rules as well.
as an extreme example of what I mean:
you can put up 50,000 signs covering every inch of torrent and if they are all in spanish then they are useless to the majority of climbers who come there. The position, size, location, and content of one sign could have a massive postive impact.
much my of job is analyzing user use patterns and creating better ways for people to navigate through information. you can have the same information(in this case signs) and present it two different ways(maybe the size of the font used and the postition of the sign). In one situation people will ignore it 80% of the time the other 20% of the time.
it is definately harder without analytical software tracking millions of users navigating through the information but sometimes a "hey did you notice the donation box?" could show whether or not a more prominent or better signed donation box would be useful.
But i agree we should definately publicly humiliate all the MF's who break the rules as well.
Back from the Dead!