moonbeam wrote:I think the donation problem comes from wanting or needing to use the
word "donation". It's a suggestion to give money if you wish. It sounds now that the
giving of money is now more of a mandatory thing to climb at Torrent, with which I personally
have no problem. So, I guess this issue is how to word this or what to charge for so that there is
no liability issue.
Well, quoting directly from Mark's rule about donations it says:
"A donation of $2.00 per person is strongly recommended. "
I agree, the way he talks about climbers not paying up and how much it costs to maintain the place, etc. it sounds like he wants it to be mandatory. He just didn't actually state it that way.
Wes: We should coordinate the effort. Maybe flyers that everyone carries and puts on every car this year plus cards to hand out in person. Maybe we could get Rick to put them on all the cars at Muir each day. Someone to hit Miguels each day. We need to discuss how to distribute and at what times so cars aren't getting hit multiple times.
The theory of evolution is just as stupid as the theories of gravity and electromagnetism.
It seems as though people are getting hung up on the $2.00 donation request more than anything. The $2.00 standard donation was passed down from my father-in-law Fred Martin. Some of you may remember him. It is was created by him to help offset labor costs. I had, and maintain the tone of financials simply due to the aggravation level my family has to endure every day. We enjoy the climbing community as a whole and believe in your sport. If I was really concerned about the $2.00 and wanted to make a profit center, I would turn it into a member's only crag. If these simple but explicite rules are not followed I can shut it down.
The main big deal with me is the lack of respect from people who enter onto my property. I live here and see it everyday. We have had dog fights even today. This interrupts my daughter's home schooling.
I am trying to work with the climbing community in still allowing dogs, because I like them also. A great deal of time, it sounds like a dog kennel here. My family and guests have chose to live and visit here to commune with nature. I simply do not have to tolerate foul language belting off the walls of this natural amphitheater. Listen to my real aggravations. They are controllable. If the climbing community can not control it, I can.
Signs to me do not hold much water. I have had them up for years. People just ignore them. The community has been warned enough.
I hope everyone understands. We do enjoy the good things in people. I feel climbing is a good thing.
For a unorganized sport its pretty amazing how fast the climbing community resolved the problem. I truly believe after reading all the posts up till now the problem will be resolved with or without signs. Their are too many people who want Torrant to stay open to let others ruin it for all of us.
FYI if signs are made maybe posting them by the walls will allow everyone to take time to read them. Instead of in the parking lot or at the bottom of the trail heads that we all hurry by.
Also for the owners of Torrent thankyou for allowing us the opportunity to fix what we screwed.
Mark I feel really terrible for the added burden on your land you've seen over the last year. Please don't think about it as "people being warned enough". Signs often times need to be replaced and updated to reflect new issues or concerns or just to make them noticable again.
I hope everyone takes this as an opportunity to recognize the growing impact of climbing. More people, especially coming from a gym background as opposed to an outdoor background, just requires more education, not anger.
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
- Robert McCloskey
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
- Emo Philips
Can I make a small respectful and humble suggestion that you might consider. I know you like dogs but maybe it's time to ask people not to bring them to your property anymore. The land owner of the HP40 in Alabama(a small bouldering area) had to go to this rule because the number of dogs got to be too much for his relatively small property. Just something to consider. And again thanks so much for your generosity.
