we are in neeed of a new pigsteak corollary:
add up the hours you devote to trail day work ($5.82 per linear foot built), divided by a factor of 4.3 if you sit on the board. multiply the divisor by the amount you donate at the kiosk, subtracting 43% for any intentional snub of said kiosk.
for every letter grade harder than 5.9 you can send at any crag outside of Muir (they have a different rating system), your contribution can be systematically reduced by $1.13.
If you can eat an entire miguel's pie by yourself, you are also exempt from tedious and back breaking trail maintenance.
for the rest of us, we need to step up.
(artsay, you are part of that core group that provides a HUGE part of the energy and drive for the Red. hands down, the majority of climbers don't help and don't care....i think that is just a reality. i am not talking about just this trail day. so much gets done by just a few of you. you know who you are, and i for one am grateful for your work. you have the right to call the rest of us to task, in whatever enviro friendly , laid back brah, all's good razor strap lesson you'd like to implement.)
Torrent Falls Trail Day
Whatever, Artsay thinks just because her gym fundraiser has helped raise around a cool 1000 bucks, and when you put that with the money we get from their Guidebook donations Ray and Michelle clearly are some of the top donors we have, plus all the behind the scenes work she's doing with me and others, as well as all the props we get on this site and the fact that they will jump whenever we ask for anything from them, she and Ray are in the clear? What have you done for us lately? 
No one in their right mind could indict Ray and Michelle, or Wes, or many others who have given us so much. I for one am so thankful for the help we see every week I get a little misty. Just eating breakfast at RRO Sunday I walked out with 130$ to put in the bank.
But, I do admit I was a bit disappointed at the low turnout. Could have been the weather, could have been the publicity, could have been many things but this was an opportunity to step up and help Mark. Again, perhaps if we had more resource and publicized much better, things would have been different but the BOD is a very shorthanded staff comprised completely of volunteers. Things ae very busy for us right now and plenty of things slip every week.
Mark's given us plenty in the past and probably will continue to do so well into the future but I think he's pretty frustrated right now and this was an opportunity for us to help ease his pain. It's not the trails that are the big issue, it's the lack of respect the visitors have for him on his own property. As a word of caution I will say this, everyone who believes there's no way he will close the crag may be mistaken about his feelings on the matter.
I used to believe that too but I can't get past the fact that it's a different breed in the Red the last few years. Maybe it's ignorance but the responsible, selfless climbers don't seem to be that popular these days.Artsay wrote:I just think that, on the whole, climbers are a good lot of people
No one in their right mind could indict Ray and Michelle, or Wes, or many others who have given us so much. I for one am so thankful for the help we see every week I get a little misty. Just eating breakfast at RRO Sunday I walked out with 130$ to put in the bank.
But, I do admit I was a bit disappointed at the low turnout. Could have been the weather, could have been the publicity, could have been many things but this was an opportunity to step up and help Mark. Again, perhaps if we had more resource and publicized much better, things would have been different but the BOD is a very shorthanded staff comprised completely of volunteers. Things ae very busy for us right now and plenty of things slip every week.
Mark's given us plenty in the past and probably will continue to do so well into the future but I think he's pretty frustrated right now and this was an opportunity for us to help ease his pain. It's not the trails that are the big issue, it's the lack of respect the visitors have for him on his own property. As a word of caution I will say this, everyone who believes there's no way he will close the crag may be mistaken about his feelings on the matter.
Apologies if I'm just repeating previously made posts.
I don't personally think the big issue was the lack of representation at the trail.
I think the bigger issue is the fundamental disregard and abuse climbers have done at Torrent.
If I'm not mistaken, signs are expected to be posted in various locations in the Red to educate climbers about expectations at Torrent.
I say, if you can't respect those expectations, then don't climb there. There are plenty of other places to climb...for now...right? But that's the point, it only takes a small group to disrespect and endanger access. Hopefully those individuals who through either ignorance, thoughtlessness or selfishness have disrespected Mark's hospitality will be literate enough to understand the new signs or smart enough to ask someone else to read it to them.
I don't personally think the big issue was the lack of representation at the trail.
I think the bigger issue is the fundamental disregard and abuse climbers have done at Torrent.
If I'm not mistaken, signs are expected to be posted in various locations in the Red to educate climbers about expectations at Torrent.
I say, if you can't respect those expectations, then don't climb there. There are plenty of other places to climb...for now...right? But that's the point, it only takes a small group to disrespect and endanger access. Hopefully those individuals who through either ignorance, thoughtlessness or selfishness have disrespected Mark's hospitality will be literate enough to understand the new signs or smart enough to ask someone else to read it to them.
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
- Robert McCloskey
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
- Emo Philips
- Robert McCloskey
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
- Emo Philips
I think the same thing Charlie. The new generation just doesn't care as much, or maybe they feel more of a entitlement than the past generation did.charlie wrote:I used to believe that too but I can't get past the fact that it's a different breed in the Red the last few years. Maybe it's ignorance but the responsible, selfless climbers don't seem to be that popular these days.Artsay wrote:I just think that, on the whole, climbers are a good lot of people
I am not trying to be negative and not pointing out some solutions. Yet the solutions are obvious and have always been there. People won't get it until they start seeing more and more cliffs being closed. It would be a HUGE tragedy if Mark closed climbing at his cliff yet it would also teach a valuble lesson.
As far as getting the word out on future trail days, I am the local rep for Cbus, I'd be more than happy to post a flyer at our gym.
I think the request and expectations for donations needs to be much much more explicit.
This fall I was told repeatedly by the people living at Miguels that I didn't need to donate. when I said we always used to have to donate, they said that no one did anymore and the system was defunct. I don't think it was malicious in any way just ignorant. I suspect way more people would donate if there was a sense of social responsibility around it and it clearly explained that the 'donation' was mandatory.
As for people not saying hi to Mark, I think that the majority of people climbing there either don't know him or don't know him in a personal manner. It wouldn't occur to me to say to someone who I didn't even realize was a landowner. I am not sure I would say hi if I did know they owned the land but I didn't have a personal relationship with him.
As far as the trash and trash talking...that is a different issue. There should be no confusion about that.
STFU and pack it out you lazy MF's or we will unleash natalie portman on you.
This fall I was told repeatedly by the people living at Miguels that I didn't need to donate. when I said we always used to have to donate, they said that no one did anymore and the system was defunct. I don't think it was malicious in any way just ignorant. I suspect way more people would donate if there was a sense of social responsibility around it and it clearly explained that the 'donation' was mandatory.
As for people not saying hi to Mark, I think that the majority of people climbing there either don't know him or don't know him in a personal manner. It wouldn't occur to me to say to someone who I didn't even realize was a landowner. I am not sure I would say hi if I did know they owned the land but I didn't have a personal relationship with him.
As far as the trash and trash talking...that is a different issue. There should be no confusion about that.
STFU and pack it out you lazy MF's or we will unleash natalie portman on you.
Back from the Dead!
Sorry if that sounded negative, I was gonna delete it but I don't think Rob and I are the only people who feel that way. Seems we have some kids who go well out of their way to set an example and pay their tithes, but there are many more these days who just go to their free playground and aren't aware of the days when Torrent was closed, and we were about to lose everything in the DBNF, when we lost Pocket Wall, etc.
We have to be vigilant or we're gonna continue to lose the things we care about.
Thanks to those of you that keep me believing our efforts will be worth it.
/stepping off the soapbox
We have to be vigilant or we're gonna continue to lose the things we care about.
Thanks to those of you that keep me believing our efforts will be worth it.
/stepping off the soapbox
My 2 cents
THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL POST FROM THE RRGCC - JUST ME
Yes Mark sounded upset, but he also said several times that he likes climbers and has a desire to keep Torrent open. He has the following concerns:
1) He has experienced a big increase in the amount of trash at the cliff over the past year
- this is sad and if you see someone leaving trash in the woods we should all step up and say something
- and please no one post and try to blame this on rednecks, hikers, etc we all know that climbers are leaving the majority of the trash at Torrent
2) Dogs off a leash
- put them on a leash people, it's not that big of a deal. He said he is ok with dogs, but would like them to be leashed.
- if you see someone with a dog off the leash at Torrent or any other crag that requires a leash feel free to speak up and educate
3) Fire pit chairs being moved - multiple times they have had to drag the chairs back to their fire pit because they have been moved as far away as the 11 wall
If you are moving people's personal property around without permission when they are allowing you on their land you suck
4) money - this is a voluntary donation
please step up and throw a few bucks in every time you go
5) bad language screamed from the cliff
He has customers that rent cabins - if you were relaxing on the porch of a cabin you rented for the weekend would you want to hear people cursing at the top of their lungs because they just fell off their proj?
We need to step up and self police or Torrent will close May 1
As far as trail day attendance goes - I've skipped trail days myself. I didn't go to the first trail day conducted by Muir Valley and I still feel bad about it. We all give in different ways and everyone should do what they can - but we all need to step up and do something or we are going to lose climbing at Torrent and who know's what next.
Ryan
THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL POST FROM THE RRGCC - JUST ME
Yes Mark sounded upset, but he also said several times that he likes climbers and has a desire to keep Torrent open. He has the following concerns:
1) He has experienced a big increase in the amount of trash at the cliff over the past year
- this is sad and if you see someone leaving trash in the woods we should all step up and say something
- and please no one post and try to blame this on rednecks, hikers, etc we all know that climbers are leaving the majority of the trash at Torrent
2) Dogs off a leash
- put them on a leash people, it's not that big of a deal. He said he is ok with dogs, but would like them to be leashed.
- if you see someone with a dog off the leash at Torrent or any other crag that requires a leash feel free to speak up and educate
3) Fire pit chairs being moved - multiple times they have had to drag the chairs back to their fire pit because they have been moved as far away as the 11 wall
If you are moving people's personal property around without permission when they are allowing you on their land you suck
4) money - this is a voluntary donation
please step up and throw a few bucks in every time you go
5) bad language screamed from the cliff
He has customers that rent cabins - if you were relaxing on the porch of a cabin you rented for the weekend would you want to hear people cursing at the top of their lungs because they just fell off their proj?
We need to step up and self police or Torrent will close May 1
As far as trail day attendance goes - I've skipped trail days myself. I didn't go to the first trail day conducted by Muir Valley and I still feel bad about it. We all give in different ways and everyone should do what they can - but we all need to step up and do something or we are going to lose climbing at Torrent and who know's what next.
Ryan
"Hookers and drugs man. Money can't buy happiness but it's really hard not to smile when you're in a cheap hotel room surrounded by hookers and drugs." ~ Charlie