Bad Lead Falls

[deleted username]

I'd imagine there is an almost definite ground fall on every second bolt in the RRG if you blow it while trying to clip WAY above your head and the belayer has lots of slack out and is not anchored to the ground. Are we going to warn against clipping way above your head on a bad hold and encourage people to anchor in too? Also, if you blow the clip on the first bolt and fall, you're "likely" to deck.

That said, I'm all for giving a heads up, but i think people should be able to "do the math" on their own most of the time. It's a slippery slope for sure. Too many warnings are bad for the sport. I always thought it was an individual sport anyway, not a theme park.

I think Johnny got it right in his book... warn against the poorly bolted ones (anchors on Blood Money) and the run out ones (What's Right With the Underling) and the ones where you might hit a tree or ledge.

Artsay, we're probably saying pretty much the same thing...

Hell, I'm going climbing... it's too nice to work!

[Jeff]

When 5.12 climbers bolt 5.9 routes, without thinking about 5.9 leaders, you get these kind of things.

No doubt!
Keep it all out of the guide. Maybe it will help to thin out the crowds .

But if you're gonna add it, then add Jump For Joy to what Wes has come up with too.

[Artsay]

JB - No, not every route in the RRG will be a potential grounder. I'll take a lead fall at the second bolt on 9 out of 10 routes at the RRG and I've fallen plenty already clipping the second bolt on many routes. BUT...there are certain routes that fall into the category I'm trying to get info on and those, and only those, are the routes that are dangerous.

What I'm looking for isn't about doing the math because that's part of climbing. And it's not about: if slack was out...if the belayer wasn't paying attention...if you climb above the bolt before you clip it, etc. It's simply about you WILL deck if you don't make the clip. It's simple, really. And I havn't even asked Ray if he wants to put it in the guide. Though if I were visiting the RRG, I'd probably want to know this information.

Thanks for the list, Wes. I still want to find out if Gung Ho falls into this category. Just looking at it, it looks pretty darn close but I'm not sure.

[SikMonkey]

if you fall AT the second bolt on Crazy Fingers and your belayer comes up, you will hit the ground. You don't even have to be clipping. Trust me, I speak from experience.

Mj

[ynot]

I don't see a problem with a few warnings. I am all for the process of natural selection, but a fatalaty won't help our cause.With our numbers increasing its going to happen sometime down the road. a heads up may prevent that.

[Rain Man]

Well, then, Matt, I guess we better make sure you're properly ANCHORED before I lead THAT one for the first time, 'cause with our weight difference, you'll end up at the top of the route while I'm picking dirt out of my teeth.

[deleted username]

Agreed artsay, and like I said, we're likely saying pretty much the same thing... and I wasn't trying to insinuate that you were going to 'have' ray put the warnings in the guide. I'd just say danger beta only needs to be given if it is really dangerous. The whole "climbing is dangerous" disclaimer will take care of the rest.

I did Pogue Ethics today... where would you put it? Since that third clip is such an easy clip, is it going to get a warning too?

[houzmon]

there is a difference between something that is a self evident danger and one that may be less obvious. Everyone knows that getting into a car is dangerous, but you would want someone with knowledge of unusual dangers to give you a heads up, like for instance someone letting you know if you're rolling on firestone tires they have a higher possibility of exploding and killing you. thats not something that people would normaly consider.
Now, i would say that most people consider falling when they are making the first couple of clips, just as poeple consider the dangers of driving a car. If there are special circumstances from the norm, I would say a heads up would be polite.

[SCIN]

The way I see it is if it's something you would mention to a good friend of yours then it's probably something that should be noted.

Otherwise it goes back to the "we're all a bunch of gay faggoty climbers in our own little group who had to find out ourselves the hard way that there were dangers on this route so all of you should too!" Then you turn around and say "Be careful my dearest loved one whom I stick my wee-wee in every night because 5.11 Bob and his butt buddy 5.10+ Jim said that 5.11b Jane decked on her fat ass while trying to hit the deadpoint before the second clip!" If you're telling your friends then why would you hold back on telling other climbers?

The only route I've seen personally that would warrant me saying "Hey, watch the fifth clip" or whatever is Alice Through the Windshield Glass at Oil Crack.

[SikMonkey]

Yeah Corey, there's a chance you MIGHT pick me up if you fell...at any of the bolts.

Mj