Hello All!
I had a different idea for a poster/donation container label but I wanted to get some facts straight first.
I noticed a post from Shannon on www.rrgcc.org about the size of the property etc.
Does anyone have a good estimate as to the size of the property?
Also are there any estimates as to the amount of cliff on the property?
How does the size of this property compare to other plots purchased by climbers in the past? (any where, not just the South East)
Thanks for the info!
Bentley
the facts
Hi Bentley, I'd say your best bet is to PM Bill Strachen (Captain Static) for the info you need on the exact size of the property, etc.
Our purchase is pretty big compared to some others in the US - the Access Fund web site should provide an overview of what has been purchased/secured - and Brad (who has been posting in this forum) can give you all of the details on the SE Climbers' properties.
Hugh may have some of this stuff too, I'll check w/ him and have him PM you if he has anything helpful.
Diane
Our purchase is pretty big compared to some others in the US - the Access Fund web site should provide an overview of what has been purchased/secured - and Brad (who has been posting in this forum) can give you all of the details on the SE Climbers' properties.
Hugh may have some of this stuff too, I'll check w/ him and have him PM you if he has anything helpful.
Diane
"Don't ever admit you keep score, it's just lame. Go climbing." LK Day
Sorry Bentley, missed this post earlier.....
~700 acres (I think it's something like 706 but the surveys are up to interpretation).
~ It's the single largest purchase to date by a climber organization, though other orgs have a ton of seperate properties this is the biggest piece of land we know of.
~ close to 300 routes now, something like 40% of the sport routes in the Red.
I kicked you a powerpoint via email, let me know if you can't view it.
~700 acres (I think it's something like 706 but the surveys are up to interpretation).
~ It's the single largest purchase to date by a climber organization, though other orgs have a ton of seperate properties this is the biggest piece of land we know of.
~ close to 300 routes now, something like 40% of the sport routes in the Red.
I kicked you a powerpoint via email, let me know if you can't view it.
SCC properties
Boat Rock - 13.2 acres
Kings Bluff - 9.78 acres
Jamestown - 3.14 acres
Castle Rock - 2 acres
it would be great in the Murray Property business plan to list the length of climbable cliffline (quick GPS points will tell you to within a few feet) along with the # of routes and the number and names of 3 star routes of grades 5.9 to 5.14 (people really like to know the amount of good climbable rock to help them gauge to give $$$).
if you need help writing the biz plan... let me know ..... you will raise big cash quickly when people see you have a goal and are focused with a time line on that goal.
Boat Rock - 13.2 acres
Kings Bluff - 9.78 acres
Jamestown - 3.14 acres
Castle Rock - 2 acres
it would be great in the Murray Property business plan to list the length of climbable cliffline (quick GPS points will tell you to within a few feet) along with the # of routes and the number and names of 3 star routes of grades 5.9 to 5.14 (people really like to know the amount of good climbable rock to help them gauge to give $$$).
if you need help writing the biz plan... let me know ..... you will raise big cash quickly when people see you have a goal and are focused with a time line on that goal.
This is a document that Bill S. sent me that has some of those numbers you mentioned Brad. Granted a lot of its really out of date but I just wanted to throw it out there for those who have not seen it.
Sorry if its hard to read because of spacing etc.
Bentley
“The RRGCC Pledge”
• OUR JOB: To deliver on Our Mission to our constituents.
• OUR MISSION: To ensure open, public access to ample, quality outdoor rock climbing opportunities to meet the needs of current and future climbers and encourage the conservation of the natural environment, on publicly managed and privately owed land by protecting, promoting, and ensuring responsible climbing.
• OUR CONSTITUENTS: The responsible recreating (outdoor) climbing public, private, public, and commercial— outdoor climbing enthusiasts, first ascentionists, outdoor public climbing institutions, and outdoor commercial climbing services and their clients.
• OUR STRATEGY: First, responsibly secure the opportunity to climb, whether on public or private land, then make climbing sustainable for climbers and the environment, and finally make all climbing exemplary.
• OUR VISION: Climbing is good for people and climbing at the Red is a national treasure deserving our best efforts for all Americans and climbers to enjoy, experience, and appreciate. We will build an organization that will provide the public service of securing and preserving the highest quality climbing opportunities where climbers will become “Citizen Trustees of Climbing”—empowering ourselves through “ownership” (taking responsibility) and direct participation.
• OUR FOCUS: Meeting our constituent’s needs for continued open access to quality climbing opportunities. Everything we do must go towards satisfying Our Mission for our Constituents.
• OUR APPROACH: Is Active Problem Solving and Long-Term Solution Planning. We will use an approach that is consistent with our values, principle-centered and will accomplish Our Mission for the long-term, such as conflict resolution that emphasizes “Conflict Partnership.”
• OUR VALUES: Commitment to mission, personal responsibility, mutual respect, personal integrity, and taking initiatives.
This is our Pledge.
Statistics
National Trends for Climbing
14.5% of climbing areas in the eastern USA are closed.
3.6% of climbing areas in the western USA are closed.
2/3 of the eastern states have 10% or more of their climbing areas closed.
55% of all closures take place on private land.
4% of the climbing on Forest Service land has been closed.
Red River Gorge Area Trends for Climbing
28.6% of climbing areas are closed.
75% of all area closures take place on private land.
1% of the climbing on Forest Service land has been temporarily closed (10 routes are closed out of 1170 routes).
0% of the climbing routes on privately owned land are secured.
27% of climbing routes on privately owned land are being accessed with limited permission.
Interesting Facts about the Red River Gorge Climbing
There are 1039 routes at the Red (listed in the 1997 Bronaugh guide)
777 routes are on Forest Service managed land (2/3 of all routes – 66%)
372 routes are on privately owned land (almost 1/3 of all routes – 32%)
20 routes are on State Park land (2% of all routes)
Approximately 120 new routes have been established since the 1997 guide (10% increase for a total of 1170)
41 new routes have been established on Forest Service land.
69 new routes have been established on privately owned land.
684 routes are listed as traditional or mixed routes in the 1997 Bronaugh guide (66% of all routes).
498 of all trad or mixed routes are rated 5.9 and below (73% of all trad or mixed routes)
177 of all trad or mixed routes are rated 5.10 (26% of all sport routes)
355 routes are listed as sport routes in the 1997 Bronaugh guide (34% of all routes).
19 of all sport routes are rated 5.9 and below (5% of all sport routes)
124 of all sport routes are rated 5.12 (35% of all sport routes)
There are 186 routes at 11 different crags established on the Murray property with the potential for 100’s more.
16% of all the climbing routes in the RED RIVER GORGE are on the Murray property.
50% of all climbing established on private land in the RED RIVER GORGE is on the Murray property.
The routes on the Murray property is the single largest collection of climbing opportunities outside the Forest Service land, with over three times as many routes as the Motherlode (more routes than the Motherlode, Torrent Falls, and Roadside combined).
There is no climbing allowed on any Kentucky State Park owned land.
RRGCC Beliefs, Vision, Values, and Mission
We believe:
• Climbing is good for people and the public.
• Climbing at the Red is so unique it deserves “our best” to protect for others to experience and enjoy.
• Climber involvement, cooperation, and commitment are absolutely necessary to ensure the future of climbing at the Red.
• Resource protection and climbing are compatible when practiced as sustainable recreation.
• We believe in long term solutions such as conflict resolution based upon responsible action, personal integrity, mutual respect, and taking the initiative.
We assume:
• Climbing will continue to grow in popularity.
• Without climber involvement, climbing at the Red, on Forest Service land will be highly restricted, most likely even “closed,” never open on State Park land, and always uncertain on private land.
• Through the RRGCC as an unified, organized, responsible group we can secure climbing at the Red for all generations to enjoy.
• We will need original, bold, creative, and visionary solutions.
Vision
Climbing at the Red is a national treasure deserving of our very best efforts to ensure for all Americans and climbers from all other the world to enjoy, experience, and appreciate. We will build an organization that will provide the public service of securing and preserving climbing at the RED RIVER GORGE at the highest quality for generations of climbers. We pledge ourselves to ensuring quality climbing at the Red, on public and private land, in perpetuity by protecting, promoting and ensuring responsible climbing as a “collective” where all climbers will become “Citizen Trustees of Climbing at the Red.”
Values
In pursuit of our mission the RRGCC will always strive to adhere to the values of personal responsibility, mutual respect, personal integrity, and taking the initiative.
Mission
“The intended effect of the RRGCC is to secure open public access and ensure enough quality climbing opportunities in the Red River Gorge area to meet the needs of present and future climbers. We intend to achieve this goal through trusteeship—holding climbing at the Red in trust for the public good—acting cooperatively as good stewards and strong civic and community leaders. We will accomplish this by dedicating ourselves and this organization to “ protecting, promoting, and ensuring responsible climbing.”
Direct US Land Acquisition to Protect Climbing Opportunities
The Access Fund:
The Access Fund has been around for the last 13 years. They have made a total of 13 land acquisition, but only 6 of them have been completely secured as climbing land for a total of 148 acres across the entire USA.
The current land acquisition undertaken by the RRGCC (for the Murray Property Project) is almost 5 times the size of all previous purchases combined, for a grand total of 700 acres.
RRGCC‘s Murray Property Project
Goal of the Murray Property Project
In order to preserve our quality and long-term climbing opportunities, we are purchasing this 700-acre climbing land for you – the responsible climber. Although this purchase is making history nation-wide, it represents more than 50% of all private climbing land combined at the Red River Gorge. Finally, and for the first time ever, we will be able to completely secure climbing land for many future generations to enjoy.
History of the Project
• Spring of 2002, John Myers, of New York called the Access Fund Regional Coordinator of the Red River Gorge, Shannon Stuart-Smith, to offer his services to the Access Fund to help buy private land with quality or threatened climbing opportunities to protect it for climbers in the Red River Gorge area. (Mr. Myers is the land acquisition director for a hiking nonprofit organization in New York but as a life long climber who wanted to volunteer his professional services to climbers.)
• At that time, the Access Fund had a full-time land acquisitions director in Boulder and was not actively seeking land acquisitions. But as the executive director of the local climbing organization, Ms. Stuart-Smith accepted Mr. Myers offer on behalf of the RRGCC to help secure climbing opportunities in the RED RIVER GORGE area for local climbers.
• Mr. Myers joined the RRGCC, came to the RRG, meet with several local climbers and first ascentionists, and started researching the area as a volunteer land acquisitions director for the RRGCC.
• After touring several climbing areas on private land in direct threat of being closed, or of high quality being offered for sale, Mr. Myers began contacting the landowners on behalf of the RRGCC.
• On September 30, 2002 an option to purchase over 700 acres of prime climbing land from Mrs. Mattie Murray was signed by the RRGCC as a result of Mr. Myers negotiations.
Climbing Opportunities
• There are 186 routes at 11 different crags established on the Murray property with the potential for 100s more
• 16% of all the climbing routes in the RED RIVER GORGE is on the Murray property
• 50% of all climbing established on private land in the RED RIVER GORGE is on the Murray property
• The routes on the Murray property is the single largest collection of climbing opportunities outside the Forest Service land, with over three times as many routes as the Motherlode, or more routes than the Motherlode, Torrent Falls, and Roadside combined
RRGCC Philosophy for Ensuring Climbing Opportunities
Conflict Resolution
The RRGCC has a philosophy and a vision for the future of climbing that it has proudly pioneered for the last five years based upon one simple concept: In almost every instances, someone else controls access to the rock that climbers climb on. Prohibitions to climbing often stem from differences among people about climbing. Since (sooner or later) climbers will need approval to climb and will always be in a long-term relation with either a land-owner or land managers, securing the future of climbing is best achieved through conflict resolution.
Gatekeepers and Guests
The founders of the RRGCC observed that previous approaches to access issues relied heavily on litigation, confrontation, or an otherwise adversarial approach to secure access to climbing. These approaches often created embattled and bitter relations and did not seem to take into account the on-going, long-term relational nature that climbers will always find themselves in with land managers, land owners, and other non-climbing interested parties.
Because climbers do not own the rock they climb, climbers are “put into” a long-term relationship with the people who “control the gates” to the rock that climbers climb on. By definition, climbers become “guest” and all those other people become “gatekeepers” and they have a long-term “relationship.” But this relationship is not equal. American property law, (based largely upon English property law) gives real property owners enormous control over their property. Public land managers, on the other hand, manage the public’s land for the public good and no one citizen has a greater claim against another citizen.
Furthermore, forty years of major federal conservation laws and a national awareness of environmental issues have prioritized resource protection over recreation. There is no affirmative right to recreate, only limits and mandates on land managers as to “how to manage,” that is finding the balance in their decision-making between competing interests and resource protection.
Principle-Centered Leadership
Therefore, the RRGCC as a grassroots organization has made an affirmative decision to articulate for itself and others this unique approach to climbing activism, called the “RRGCC Philosophy.” Access to climbing is based upon decisions made by people about other people. The RRGCC believes that conflicts between climbers and these decision-makers are best resolved through conflict resolution techniques that emphasize mutual respect and mutually beneficial solutions. The RRGCC believes that climbers are best served in their quest for access to climbing by practicing, among themselves and, towards all others, respect. The RRGCC as an organization will offer respect and expect to be treated in a respectful manner, and in all things will endeavor to be part of the solution, and never part of the problem.
The RRGCC as always welcomes your thoughts, comments, critique, and support.
Sorry if its hard to read because of spacing etc.
Bentley
“The RRGCC Pledge”
• OUR JOB: To deliver on Our Mission to our constituents.
• OUR MISSION: To ensure open, public access to ample, quality outdoor rock climbing opportunities to meet the needs of current and future climbers and encourage the conservation of the natural environment, on publicly managed and privately owed land by protecting, promoting, and ensuring responsible climbing.
• OUR CONSTITUENTS: The responsible recreating (outdoor) climbing public, private, public, and commercial— outdoor climbing enthusiasts, first ascentionists, outdoor public climbing institutions, and outdoor commercial climbing services and their clients.
• OUR STRATEGY: First, responsibly secure the opportunity to climb, whether on public or private land, then make climbing sustainable for climbers and the environment, and finally make all climbing exemplary.
• OUR VISION: Climbing is good for people and climbing at the Red is a national treasure deserving our best efforts for all Americans and climbers to enjoy, experience, and appreciate. We will build an organization that will provide the public service of securing and preserving the highest quality climbing opportunities where climbers will become “Citizen Trustees of Climbing”—empowering ourselves through “ownership” (taking responsibility) and direct participation.
• OUR FOCUS: Meeting our constituent’s needs for continued open access to quality climbing opportunities. Everything we do must go towards satisfying Our Mission for our Constituents.
• OUR APPROACH: Is Active Problem Solving and Long-Term Solution Planning. We will use an approach that is consistent with our values, principle-centered and will accomplish Our Mission for the long-term, such as conflict resolution that emphasizes “Conflict Partnership.”
• OUR VALUES: Commitment to mission, personal responsibility, mutual respect, personal integrity, and taking initiatives.
This is our Pledge.
Statistics
National Trends for Climbing
14.5% of climbing areas in the eastern USA are closed.
3.6% of climbing areas in the western USA are closed.
2/3 of the eastern states have 10% or more of their climbing areas closed.
55% of all closures take place on private land.
4% of the climbing on Forest Service land has been closed.
Red River Gorge Area Trends for Climbing
28.6% of climbing areas are closed.
75% of all area closures take place on private land.
1% of the climbing on Forest Service land has been temporarily closed (10 routes are closed out of 1170 routes).
0% of the climbing routes on privately owned land are secured.
27% of climbing routes on privately owned land are being accessed with limited permission.
Interesting Facts about the Red River Gorge Climbing
There are 1039 routes at the Red (listed in the 1997 Bronaugh guide)
777 routes are on Forest Service managed land (2/3 of all routes – 66%)
372 routes are on privately owned land (almost 1/3 of all routes – 32%)
20 routes are on State Park land (2% of all routes)
Approximately 120 new routes have been established since the 1997 guide (10% increase for a total of 1170)
41 new routes have been established on Forest Service land.
69 new routes have been established on privately owned land.
684 routes are listed as traditional or mixed routes in the 1997 Bronaugh guide (66% of all routes).
498 of all trad or mixed routes are rated 5.9 and below (73% of all trad or mixed routes)
177 of all trad or mixed routes are rated 5.10 (26% of all sport routes)
355 routes are listed as sport routes in the 1997 Bronaugh guide (34% of all routes).
19 of all sport routes are rated 5.9 and below (5% of all sport routes)
124 of all sport routes are rated 5.12 (35% of all sport routes)
There are 186 routes at 11 different crags established on the Murray property with the potential for 100’s more.
16% of all the climbing routes in the RED RIVER GORGE are on the Murray property.
50% of all climbing established on private land in the RED RIVER GORGE is on the Murray property.
The routes on the Murray property is the single largest collection of climbing opportunities outside the Forest Service land, with over three times as many routes as the Motherlode (more routes than the Motherlode, Torrent Falls, and Roadside combined).
There is no climbing allowed on any Kentucky State Park owned land.
RRGCC Beliefs, Vision, Values, and Mission
We believe:
• Climbing is good for people and the public.
• Climbing at the Red is so unique it deserves “our best” to protect for others to experience and enjoy.
• Climber involvement, cooperation, and commitment are absolutely necessary to ensure the future of climbing at the Red.
• Resource protection and climbing are compatible when practiced as sustainable recreation.
• We believe in long term solutions such as conflict resolution based upon responsible action, personal integrity, mutual respect, and taking the initiative.
We assume:
• Climbing will continue to grow in popularity.
• Without climber involvement, climbing at the Red, on Forest Service land will be highly restricted, most likely even “closed,” never open on State Park land, and always uncertain on private land.
• Through the RRGCC as an unified, organized, responsible group we can secure climbing at the Red for all generations to enjoy.
• We will need original, bold, creative, and visionary solutions.
Vision
Climbing at the Red is a national treasure deserving of our very best efforts to ensure for all Americans and climbers from all other the world to enjoy, experience, and appreciate. We will build an organization that will provide the public service of securing and preserving climbing at the RED RIVER GORGE at the highest quality for generations of climbers. We pledge ourselves to ensuring quality climbing at the Red, on public and private land, in perpetuity by protecting, promoting and ensuring responsible climbing as a “collective” where all climbers will become “Citizen Trustees of Climbing at the Red.”
Values
In pursuit of our mission the RRGCC will always strive to adhere to the values of personal responsibility, mutual respect, personal integrity, and taking the initiative.
Mission
“The intended effect of the RRGCC is to secure open public access and ensure enough quality climbing opportunities in the Red River Gorge area to meet the needs of present and future climbers. We intend to achieve this goal through trusteeship—holding climbing at the Red in trust for the public good—acting cooperatively as good stewards and strong civic and community leaders. We will accomplish this by dedicating ourselves and this organization to “ protecting, promoting, and ensuring responsible climbing.”
Direct US Land Acquisition to Protect Climbing Opportunities
The Access Fund:
The Access Fund has been around for the last 13 years. They have made a total of 13 land acquisition, but only 6 of them have been completely secured as climbing land for a total of 148 acres across the entire USA.
The current land acquisition undertaken by the RRGCC (for the Murray Property Project) is almost 5 times the size of all previous purchases combined, for a grand total of 700 acres.
RRGCC‘s Murray Property Project
Goal of the Murray Property Project
In order to preserve our quality and long-term climbing opportunities, we are purchasing this 700-acre climbing land for you – the responsible climber. Although this purchase is making history nation-wide, it represents more than 50% of all private climbing land combined at the Red River Gorge. Finally, and for the first time ever, we will be able to completely secure climbing land for many future generations to enjoy.
History of the Project
• Spring of 2002, John Myers, of New York called the Access Fund Regional Coordinator of the Red River Gorge, Shannon Stuart-Smith, to offer his services to the Access Fund to help buy private land with quality or threatened climbing opportunities to protect it for climbers in the Red River Gorge area. (Mr. Myers is the land acquisition director for a hiking nonprofit organization in New York but as a life long climber who wanted to volunteer his professional services to climbers.)
• At that time, the Access Fund had a full-time land acquisitions director in Boulder and was not actively seeking land acquisitions. But as the executive director of the local climbing organization, Ms. Stuart-Smith accepted Mr. Myers offer on behalf of the RRGCC to help secure climbing opportunities in the RED RIVER GORGE area for local climbers.
• Mr. Myers joined the RRGCC, came to the RRG, meet with several local climbers and first ascentionists, and started researching the area as a volunteer land acquisitions director for the RRGCC.
• After touring several climbing areas on private land in direct threat of being closed, or of high quality being offered for sale, Mr. Myers began contacting the landowners on behalf of the RRGCC.
• On September 30, 2002 an option to purchase over 700 acres of prime climbing land from Mrs. Mattie Murray was signed by the RRGCC as a result of Mr. Myers negotiations.
Climbing Opportunities
• There are 186 routes at 11 different crags established on the Murray property with the potential for 100s more
• 16% of all the climbing routes in the RED RIVER GORGE is on the Murray property
• 50% of all climbing established on private land in the RED RIVER GORGE is on the Murray property
• The routes on the Murray property is the single largest collection of climbing opportunities outside the Forest Service land, with over three times as many routes as the Motherlode, or more routes than the Motherlode, Torrent Falls, and Roadside combined
RRGCC Philosophy for Ensuring Climbing Opportunities
Conflict Resolution
The RRGCC has a philosophy and a vision for the future of climbing that it has proudly pioneered for the last five years based upon one simple concept: In almost every instances, someone else controls access to the rock that climbers climb on. Prohibitions to climbing often stem from differences among people about climbing. Since (sooner or later) climbers will need approval to climb and will always be in a long-term relation with either a land-owner or land managers, securing the future of climbing is best achieved through conflict resolution.
Gatekeepers and Guests
The founders of the RRGCC observed that previous approaches to access issues relied heavily on litigation, confrontation, or an otherwise adversarial approach to secure access to climbing. These approaches often created embattled and bitter relations and did not seem to take into account the on-going, long-term relational nature that climbers will always find themselves in with land managers, land owners, and other non-climbing interested parties.
Because climbers do not own the rock they climb, climbers are “put into” a long-term relationship with the people who “control the gates” to the rock that climbers climb on. By definition, climbers become “guest” and all those other people become “gatekeepers” and they have a long-term “relationship.” But this relationship is not equal. American property law, (based largely upon English property law) gives real property owners enormous control over their property. Public land managers, on the other hand, manage the public’s land for the public good and no one citizen has a greater claim against another citizen.
Furthermore, forty years of major federal conservation laws and a national awareness of environmental issues have prioritized resource protection over recreation. There is no affirmative right to recreate, only limits and mandates on land managers as to “how to manage,” that is finding the balance in their decision-making between competing interests and resource protection.
Principle-Centered Leadership
Therefore, the RRGCC as a grassroots organization has made an affirmative decision to articulate for itself and others this unique approach to climbing activism, called the “RRGCC Philosophy.” Access to climbing is based upon decisions made by people about other people. The RRGCC believes that conflicts between climbers and these decision-makers are best resolved through conflict resolution techniques that emphasize mutual respect and mutually beneficial solutions. The RRGCC believes that climbers are best served in their quest for access to climbing by practicing, among themselves and, towards all others, respect. The RRGCC as an organization will offer respect and expect to be treated in a respectful manner, and in all things will endeavor to be part of the solution, and never part of the problem.
The RRGCC as always welcomes your thoughts, comments, critique, and support.