Bad Hybrid at Muir Valley: hold bolted on?!
It seems like people bang on holds to see if the can withstand being used by climbers. If I see rock that looks suspect I'll at least give it a little knock for my own peace of mind. But chipping a hold is something different. Espically in the Red where a chipped hold can lead to constant seeping. Knocking off loose stuff is done in the interest of safety chipping a new hold because you can't send a route is done in the interest of pride or vanity.
"I just want to disappear"
Good points, mcrib. However, in either case -- chipping or selective removal of loose stuff -- the rock is being permanently altered in an "unnatural" way. A few non climbers who have visited Muir have expressed their preference for having NO alterations done of any kind and climbers kept away from the walls. Of course, we believe compromises are necessary, just as they are in other climbing areas. Again, none of us are advocating chipping.mcrib wrote:It seems like people bang on holds to see if the can withstand being used by climbers. If I see rock that looks suspect I'll at least give it a little knock for my own peace of mind. But chipping a hold is something different. Espically in the Red where a chipped hold can lead to constant seeping. Knocking off loose stuff is done in the interest of safety chipping a new hold because you can't send a route is done in the interest of pride or vanity.
Weber
We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand. - Randy Pausch
None are so old as those who have outlived enthusiasm. - Henry David Thoreau
None are so old as those who have outlived enthusiasm. - Henry David Thoreau
wow. You guys are even more purist than you realize. The bolting out here is suspect at best. The rock is regularly chiseled,altered,comfortized what ever you want to call it.You have it so good and you don't even know it. Look at Mt Potesi or Mt Charleston. insane routes that are 5.13-5.15 and are altered. you cant imagine how good you have it arguing about "ethics" . Ethics is not even a correct term because to have an ethic you have to have at least two people who agree on the same thing! This is unheard of in climbing.
Do you like apples? Well, how do you like [b]THEM APPLES[/b]
I'm with Rick. If you bolt, you will alter the rock. I can't tell you how much rock I have removed from routes to make them safe. Bolt ons were tried at Smith rocks years ago, and were "over ruled". Myself, I'd prefer to see a nice small edge chipped into the 5.6 to make the line consistent. Again, I haven't even seen this line, so I guess I should reserve comment. (My guess, chipping a small edge would take away less rock than the hole that was drilled for that bolted on hold.)
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.
Wow... and I too have not even seen the route, however must comment about a comment made about my poor little country (sorry, just had to...)
The alteration of routes in France (and Europe) is very selective - there is chipping to make a route safer, and there is chipping / glueing to make something climbable.
The routes in questions are usually super hard 5.14's that only needed one modification (or two or three)... what ever, and don't feel so bad: the result is the same, and in the end, the controvercies are near identical. People still do it - but usually not to make something down to a 5.6 or so. There are many instances of taking a wall that's completely blank (such as a canal wall made of concrete) and placing plastic all over it... just so people can have fun. It's actually cool if you don't want to waste fuel to go somewhere far.
There are certain "clubs" which will climb building, statues... right in the center of Paris (and similar) - it's an art - I guess.
If you are egoing to put a bolt (any bolts) in the a region, then take a big breathe on alteration - we are talking about one hold, one route... and joke or no joke, perhaps it was done for boy/girl scouts, perhaps for someone 97 years old, perhaps someone 2 years old... who knows? But know what? That land is privately owned.
Sorry if I am jumping up and down a little here, but while many people being respectful, I find others a little out of line when I hear:
CUT the tree.
REMOVE that hold now.
Perhaps I am not being diplomatic here, but perhaps people making near-such comments should learn to be a little respectful and diplomatic... like perhaps contacting the owner and expressing YOUR opinion.
Disclaimer: I reead the comment made where everything was taken care of... but as a climber, I am a little concerned about climbers wanting to take matters in their owne hands...
The future may lie in private land ownership... why but WHY would we want to jeoperdize this in any given way with the owner?
The alteration of routes in France (and Europe) is very selective - there is chipping to make a route safer, and there is chipping / glueing to make something climbable.
The routes in questions are usually super hard 5.14's that only needed one modification (or two or three)... what ever, and don't feel so bad: the result is the same, and in the end, the controvercies are near identical. People still do it - but usually not to make something down to a 5.6 or so. There are many instances of taking a wall that's completely blank (such as a canal wall made of concrete) and placing plastic all over it... just so people can have fun. It's actually cool if you don't want to waste fuel to go somewhere far.
There are certain "clubs" which will climb building, statues... right in the center of Paris (and similar) - it's an art - I guess.
If you are egoing to put a bolt (any bolts) in the a region, then take a big breathe on alteration - we are talking about one hold, one route... and joke or no joke, perhaps it was done for boy/girl scouts, perhaps for someone 97 years old, perhaps someone 2 years old... who knows? But know what? That land is privately owned.
Sorry if I am jumping up and down a little here, but while many people being respectful, I find others a little out of line when I hear:
CUT the tree.
REMOVE that hold now.
Perhaps I am not being diplomatic here, but perhaps people making near-such comments should learn to be a little respectful and diplomatic... like perhaps contacting the owner and expressing YOUR opinion.
Disclaimer: I reead the comment made where everything was taken care of... but as a climber, I am a little concerned about climbers wanting to take matters in their owne hands...
The future may lie in private land ownership... why but WHY would we want to jeoperdize this in any given way with the owner?
! Enough with all that detestation ALREADY !
Smile & be thankful for what you have.
Smile & be thankful for what you have.
-
Bruisebrother
- Posts: 254
- Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 11:27 pm
Oh yeah??!!! Well, you kin go suck a lemon! There ain't another hold on any route anywhere in the Red like that one. You kin pull down hard on it, or rotate it and undercling or sidepull it.J-Rock wrote:That route sucks with or without the hold.
I thought you'd take a hint about messin' with me when I dropped that snake on you a couple weeks ago. Guess I hafta ratchet up the harrassment. Be afraid... be VERY afraid.
Rizzo
Life is too important to be taken seriously. - Oscar Wilde