Victory Whippers & Spinners

[weber]

Call it whatever you want, i'm talkin about people havin to tighten bolts every time they're take a load. People tightening every bolt on a wall in one visit. Brand new routes or not, you shouldn't have to do that.

Please show me one route in Muir where "tightening every bolt on a wall in one visit" occurs. I respectfully submit that this may be an exageration that gives a misleading assessment of the bolting done here.

Yes, bolts loosen on this sugar-like RRG rock, but they do so because of the soft nature of the rock (and perhaps too many victory whippers) and not because the route developers are doing anything wrong. We've spent a hell of a lot more time and money developing and testing high-integrity bolting here in Muir than anyone else has ever done in the Red. It is disheartening to read misleading exagerations of an already recognized problem inherent in Corbin sandstone.

Rick

[stix]

meant to say inconsistent with what ive experienced elsewhere in the red

[J-Rock]

Sorry Stix, I didn't mean for that to be directed toward you. We had been told by somebody else that they tightened an ENTIRE wall when in fact they only climbed two of the routes. There is a small group of local climbers at the Red spreading such rumors and exaggerations on a regular basis so it is easy to see how this sort of thing has snowballed.

And, Meadows that does apply to what Stix said because he did comment about people having to tighten every bolt on a wall in one visit. (Therefore, I didn't bring it up).

[ReachHigh]

spinners even happen on granite. I can't say much about taking a fall on purpose. I take way to many just trying to get up the rock on toprope.

[J-Rock]

That would be well over 60 bolts. I don't think so. You greatly exaggerate. You may have tightened all of them, but there were probably only 2 or 3 at best that were actually loose.

[weber]

J-Rock, if you're talking about what terry did, I was there and he DID tighten down many bolts. He may have only sent 2-3 that day, but we got on every route on the Indy wall except for Stretcherous.

I recall it being almost every bolt besides three or four.

Maybe a clarification is in order here. A bolt can be tightened sufficiently (according to the specs provided by the bolt mfgr) and STILL be tightened further by someone who, for reasons of his own, wishes to do so. That does NOT mean the original torque was insufficient.

I can go to the Southern Region and tighten down many of the bolts there with my two-foot handle torque wrench. To what purpose? In reality, I may be OVER torquing the bolt for the type of material in which it is inserted. Corbin sandstone has such rotten compressive strength -- about 800 to 1200 psi that it falls below the recommended torque values given for the poorest concrete.

Yes, it is possible to over-torque a bolt in sandstone and cause a worse condition than applying the correct torque for the material. We have blown a huge chunk of sandstone out of the face of a wall by applying a sustained high torque to a Dynabolt Gold.

It is not the purpose of my argument to diminish concerns over loose bolts -- i.e. finger loose. Of course, these should be tightened. But, for sure, many bolts are sufficiently tight, and cranking on them further can actually create a dangerous situation.

Rick

[Wes]

Rick, how do you climb (and allow/encourge people to climb) on this super soft corbin sandstone? I mean if a super low fall factor fall from the anchors can be harmfull to the bolt placement....

Actually, I think a bigger factor in creating loose bolts and spinners, is when the bolts are not on center. To use a non-muir route (so j-rock wont think I am somehow questioning the size of his manhood) on Crazyfingers, you clip the last bolt, then move up and right to the chains. If I were to clip the last bolt, and take the victory whip, the force on that bolt would be mostly down and not very high. If I were to clip the anchors, and lower, that last draw will rotate to the right, putting a twisting type force on that hanger, which over time will cause the bolts to loosen/spin in the hole, or wear away the surface rock. Also, when you lower off of the two rap rings in the same plane setup, you put turning (loosening) forces one of the anchor bolts.

So, anywhere you have bolts that are not lined up in the center, you will have the rope pulling the hangers in directions they were not dsigned to be pulled. And this, to me, seems like a much greater factor in creating loose and spinning bolts then any falls.

[Gaar]

In the words of Daffy Duck "ya know, this means War!"

I'm not picking sides, but all i think Rick was ASKING was for you to simply think about taking intentional whips! Thats it.

[Danny]

Rick thanks for the info. I'll definitely respect your request not to unnecessarily stress bolts at Muir. And thanks so much for letting us climb on your land. I've been having fun climbing a bunch of moderates there with my son while my finger is healing.

[J-Rock]

Wes, this has nothing to do with the "size of anybody's manhood" as you so eloquently put it. It is about respecting the landowners request to please not take unnecessary whippers at Muir Valley. Can't a person defend themselves on here without somebody attacking their ego or manhood for doing so? Seems kind of silly doesn't it?